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Zoe McMahon's avatar

As a meditator and fan of brain stuff, I am enjoying your investigations and would like to add something here from my own experience. Most of the meditation and mindfulness teaching that I have received is indeed not asking us to stop thinking. Gosh, why would we do that to our beautiful minds, they have so much power - I guess we agree on that. There is something else though, meditation for me, and mindfulness in daily life, is a practice of learning to experience our world through more than the thinking mind. I have heard and enjoy the phrase that meditation is a "neck down" practice. Scientifically, it's not completely that, but what that is pointing to is to experience our body from within our body (interoception). How does the hand feel, from the hand vs thinking about the hand. What I think is happening when we do this is that we using parts of the brain that are more experiential than conceptual. Not saying that the latter is a bad thing, just that the type of awareness we can bring to our embodied experience is so enriching! For me, it allow me to access more awe, openness to experience etc. I am just noticing the world, experiencing how it moves me "in the body" (feelings, sensations etc) and responding from there. So - I guess I am in full agreement that meditation is not about stopping thinking, although it can help us to observe the unhelpful patterns of thought that might plague us. Rather, it can also widen the view and enable more doors of perception to open.

Scott Barry Kaufman's avatar

"it can also widen the view and enable more doors of perception to open." no disagreement there!

Being well / Wellbeing's avatar

This is interesting from two points of view. I regularly test clients (trauma, addiction) and sense underreporting i.e., I’m perceiving the clients at significantly higher anxiety or depression levels than their answers indicate. I’ll share this with them and raise interoception as the issue. But flagging and defining is not doing and doing interoceptive things is being deeply. Being deeply sounds like a task positive activity but…there’s a generality about it that puts it into the DMN. That DMN generality is akin to an emerging concept of EASI (embodied active situated intelligence) that I encounter in some strains of philosophical psychology and theories of mind. In my previous profession (heritage architecture), I always tried to first encounter subject properties alone and quietly. To experience abandoned spaces that way allowed me to pick up vibe, discontinuities, and senses of space that would be blocked by the cost of attention required by people & voices. This sounds slightly mystical but we’re concerned here with entirely physical manifestations like flooring patterns & resonance; baseboard thicknesses, heights, & beading; window opening depths…it is only in reading SBK and your response that I am myself understanding how deeply focused attention—during initial building walk-throughs—was probably some of the deepest meditative experiences I’ve known. Thank you both for providing this opportunity.

Linda Sparrowe's avatar

I came across this newsletter at the perfect time. I had been reading a piece on mindfulness meditation and the author described it as a way to psychoanalyze our thoughts, emotions, and habitual patterns. It went against everything I've learned over 45 years of meditating—and still I began to doubt myself! So thank you.

It always puzzles me when people talk about any form of meditation as a way to quiet the mind, erase it, or stop it from thinking when in fact it's the mind's job to think! Not always with discernment and it rarely stays on topic. But you can befriend the mind and when you notice it's run amok, you can encourage it gently to return to now, return to practice. And...oh TM, not a fan of what it's become! TM was my introduction to meditation; it was so many years ago that it only cost $10 if we made a artistic contribution to the TM Center in LA! It's gotten crazy expensive, which is so silly because it's just mantra meditation. Anyone can create a mantra for themselves--for free. I'm fascinated by this study and like Trilety Wade, really look forward to others replicating it. Thanks again for all you do.

Tom Mckinley Ball's avatar

Thanks for your comment, Linda. As a teacher of TM, I agree with you wholehearted that it's futile to try and stop thinking, because, as you say, it's the mind's job to think. In the framework of TM, we offer this added perspective: the ultimate reason the mind is active is because it's the mind's nature to always be seeking fields of greater interest, greater satisfaction. The mind thirsts for more knowledge, more enjoyment; the mind doesn't like to be static or restricted, its tendency is to move toward more and more ("toward fields of greater charm"). Even if we're caught up worrying about something, it's because we want to resolve whatever is bothering us; we naturally don't want things to get worse, but better. It turns out that the quieter, deeper, subtler, more "inward" levels of the thinking process are more charming to the mind than the busy, surface, active levels of thought. This is why, in the TM system, meditation must be completely effortless (engaging the default mode network), so that we're not intentionally directing, focusing, or actively engaging the mind, which keeps it outward and active and on the surface; instead, we're allowing the mind's natural tendency to bring attention spontaneously to those quieter, more orderly, more charming levels of the thinking process, until the faintest impulse of thought is transcended, and the mind is left in that state of pure awareness, pure consciousness (consciousness by itself, fully expanded and wide awake within itself). This profound settling of the mind brings the body to a state of deep rest (hence the research showing deep physiological relaxation during TM, deeper even than sleep, by many measures). But in this state of transcendence, the mind DOES stop thinking. Not because it's being forced to, but because it settles into its natural ground state of restful alertness—silent inner wakefulness (a state of heightened EEG coherence and more orderly, holistic brain functioning). It's the natural state of pure Being—Sat Chit Ananda—which, I would say, is the goal of all great traditions of meditation.

Tom Mckinley Ball's avatar

And oh, Linda, the TM course fee: To allow anyone to be able to learn TM, there's a sliding scale fee to take the course; the amount is based on one's income (the less you make, the cheaper it is, starting at $420). We also offer scholarships for anyone who cannot afford to pay. Here in Asheville, in the months after the hurricane, we waived the course fee and taught over 500 people for free. Same offering in LA after the fires. But teaching this technique is the full-time profession of most TM teachers, who hope to earn a living wage. Hence, the cost. Also, half of the course fee goes to the non-profit Maharishi Foundation which provides scholarships to help underserved populations learn to meditate, and which offers a lifetime of free support and guidance to meditators. But, as you suggest, the issue really is: do you even need a teacher to learn this? Is TM just ordinary mantra meditation that you can learn on your own, from a book, from your neighbor? My experience teaching this meditation to 1000s of people, for 50 years, is that people not only need the personal instruction to learn properly, but most also need continuing follow-up and guidance. When you learn TM you're learning how not to *try* in meditation, how to be completely innocent and effortless and let the process work naturally on its own, and there's a technique for that. Apart from learning one's correct mantra or sound, when one learns TM they learn how to USE the mantra in a specific way that allows the mind to naturally settle and transcend. It's not just repeating the mantra in your head. It's not concentrating or focusing (which people tend to do without proper instruction—and sometimes even after instruction when left on their own for a few days). While TM is taught in accordance with the precise principles of teaching that have been preserved by the Vedic meditation masters for 1000s of years, the technique had gotten lost to society, even in India, for many centuries, before being reintroduced by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. From the perspective of this ancient tradition of knowledge about consciousness and higher stages of development, the reason that there's so much suffering in the world—the reason human life is plagued with so many problems—is because the delicate technique for transcending got lost to society. People in general haven't known how to access and unfold the peace, clarity, and harmony of their deepest inner Self. So life became a struggle. Because we don't want this technique to get lost again, and because the world needs it, we teach it carefully, systematically, and take time to do it right, however much time is needed for each student—even when we teach them for free. This takes training and commitment on part of the teacher. It's been sort of a radical thing for our society to value meditation instruction and regard it as something worth paying for. But as the benefits of meditation—and this technique in particular—become more and more scientifically verified, hopefully that's all about to change.

Linda Sparrowe's avatar

Oh Tom...thank you for reminding me of the benefits of TM...I'm also grateful that you pointed out that TM offers a sliding scale. I do want to say that I still use mantra when I am anxious, when I have a hard time settling into stillness and it's served me well for 55 years. So I hope you didn't take offence at my comments.

There's a concept in yoga that works well when a student feels like they've lost their focus, when they suddenly realize their mind left the building several minutes ago. I use it even in mantra meditation. You probably know it...it's the concept of abhyasa and vairagya. Abhyasa is a gentle nudge to come back into focus, to return home to the present again and again. Vairagya reminds us to loosen the grip on what gets in our way of quieting the mind. Abhyasa gently brings our mind back and vairagya is the choice we make once we return (or this is at least how I translate them!!). And you are right. The mind can indeed settle into stillness--sometimes only for a breath or two, sometimes longer. But I learned to not judge my meditations as good or bad depending on how long my mind can be still! Thank you again for taking the time to write. (and ps...years ago when i was editor of Yoga Journal, I loved my time at The Raj in Fairfield...for pancha karma!).

Tom Mckinley Ball's avatar

Thanks so much for exploring the brain research on TM and its activation of default mode network. As a TM teacher, I would love to see ever more research on this technique, especially by more scientists unassociated with the practice, to avoid the appearance (or actuality) of possible bias. 🙏

Gaelle Duret's avatar

Scott, thank you for the clarification on this subject. It is greatly appreciated to understand the impact of different types of meditation.

Steve Fowler's avatar

Great piece, Dr. Scott! Thank you.

The Long Brown Path's avatar

I've tried various forms of meditation and not got very far. Maybe you could find research about running as a path to transcendence?

Trilety Wade's avatar

This is all so interesting, and - as always - I love your enthusiasm! For your interests and evidence. As someone who learned meditation through John Kabat Zinn's MBSR book "Full Catastrophe Living," I was super curious when I first started to hear about TM in the last few years. (I'm admittedly late to the TM game ha!). But from what I can tell, you must learn it from a certified instructor, which usually costs money. Which is strange because the concept itself - 20 minutes, twice a day, with a mantra - seems like it should be freely accessible. Anything that becomes so branded, as TM has become over the decades, gives me pause, especially in the contemplative practices. Like you, I look forward to replications of these studies! I also wish there was a) less trashing of your beloved DMN, and b) more clarity that a lot of meditation practices aren't trying to erase your mind, but are trying to be "aware" of your mind. Thanks so much, Scott!!

Scott Barry Kaufman's avatar

Thank you for such a thoughtful comment! Besides speaking the truth here (yes the TM-branded stuff gives me pause too), you're a really good writer!

Trilety Wade's avatar

Aw thank you so much, that means the world to me!

Tom Mckinley Ball's avatar

In the early days of teaching TM, some folks, untrained as TM teachers, decided to start teaching a meditation themselves and calling it "Transcendental Meditation," although what they were offering was something very different. People had no way of knowing if they were learning the actual technique in its purity, as taught by Maharishi, or something else. So the name became trademarked, and then people could feel confident that they were learning the real deal, taught by trained and certified TM teachers. For me, it's simply a practical way of preserving the purity and effectiveness of the technique. 😇

Trilety Wade's avatar

This clarification is really helpful, thanks so much - I appreciate you taking the time to explain

John Burns's avatar

If I may, a little context. I buy a newspaper every day. It costs me €650 in a year. I usually feel I am better informed, if a litle depressed, for doing so. I learned TM in 1974 for about £40 and it has literally changed my life. This works out at a cost to me of less than £1 per year over the period I have been using the technique.

According to one article in that newspaper, €6.58 billion was spent on alcohol in Ireland in one year. This is almost twice what was spent on clothing and footwear and 85% of what was spent on food. Why do people spend so much on alcohol? Partly to defuse tension. Partly to have a good time.

We are willing to spend billions on alcohol and make the shareholders of multinationals rich. At the same we want our lives changed and our tension gone and are not willing to pay for a reasonable service. This does not make sense to me.

To quote from another newspaper I read recently:" It’s not spiritual to expect something for nothing. It’s not spiritual to expect others to take care of you..... Entitlement is a soul-sickness in all its forms. Perfect health is spiritual — sober, spiritual, mental, emotional, creative, and financial health."

Vladymyr's avatar

Dear Scott,

​Your piece brilliantly cuts through one of the most pervasive misconceptions in modern mindfulness culture: the idea that the Default Mode Network is an enemy to be silenced. Your rehabilitation of it as the Imagination Network—the very sanctuary of self-authorship, autobiographical depth, and creative vision—is both scientifically necessary and deeply liberating.

​As a physician and professional abstract artist, I have spent decades exploring this exact neuro-aesthetic intersection. In response to this dynamic, I developed a 7-step active meditation methodology, which I named Artistic Programming (or Creativism).

​While traditional meditation often seeks quietude, this approach is an active, embodied meditation designed to intentionally dial up the Imagination Network, rather than turn it off.

​Instead of passive settling, the practitioner enters a state of "controlled chaos"—using tactile movement, spontaneous paint application, and somatic engagement. This physical act bypasses the rigid filters of the analytical mind and invites the DMN into a dynamic, effortless synergy with the Executive Control Network.

​Through this 7-step protocol, an implicit life query, existential crisis, or creative block is fed into the imagination. The network doesn't just wander; it processes. By translating subconscious wave-patterns into a physical visual metaphor on canvas, the mind effectively transforms the initial query into a concrete, embodied response—crystallizing what I call a "Third Fact" and establishing a new operational blueprint (Modus Operandi) for one's life.

​Your distinction between practices that quiet the DMN and those that engage it is vital. The inner stream of images, memories, and metaphors isn't noise to be filtered out—it is the raw material of human transformation. Thank you for continuing to champion the true richness of our inner lives.

​Warm regards,

​Dr. Volodymyr Mukhin

Physician and Artist

Odesa, Ukraine

Vladymyr's avatar

Dear Scott,

​Your piece brilliantly cuts through one of the most pervasive misconceptions in modern mindfulness culture: the idea that the Default Mode Network is an enemy to be silenced. Your rehabilitation of it as the Imagination Network—the very sanctuary of self-authorship, autobiographical depth, and creative vision—is both scientifically necessary and deeply liberating.

​As a physician and professional abstract artist, I have spent decades exploring this exact neuro-aesthetic intersection. In response to this dynamic, I developed a 7-step active meditation methodology, which I named Artistic Programming (or Creativism).

​While traditional meditation often seeks quietude, this approach is an active, embodied meditation designed to intentionally dial up the Imagination Network, rather than turn it off.

​Instead of passive settling, the practitioner enters a state of "controlled chaos"—using tactile movement, spontaneous paint application, and somatic engagement. This physical act bypasses the rigid filters of the analytical mind and invites the DMN into a dynamic, effortless synergy with the Executive Control Network.

​Through this 7-step protocol, an implicit life query, existential crisis, or creative block is fed into the imagination. The network doesn't just wander; it processes. By translating subconscious wave-patterns into a physical visual metaphor on canvas, the mind effectively transforms the initial query into a concrete, embodied response—crystallizing what I call a "Third Fact" and establishing a new operational blueprint (Modus Operandi) for one's life.

​Your distinction between practices that quiet the DMN and those that engage it is vital. The inner stream of images, memories, and metaphors isn't noise to be filtered out—it is the raw material of human transformation. Thank you for continuing to champion the true richness of our inner lives.

​Warm regards,

​Dr. Volodymyr Mukhin

Physician and Artist

Odesa, Ukraine